Kay Warren, known for cofounding Saddleback Church with her husband, Pastor Rick Warren, joins Stephanie Daniels to discuss a deeply personal topic. Kay is the mother of three adult children, including Matthew who lost his life to suicide at age 27 after years of chronic depression. Having walked beside her son through his suffering, and survived the anguish of his death, Kay has experienced firsthand the need for the church, and all believers, to extend compassionate support to people facing mental health struggles. Tune in for this critical call for the body of Christ to support people who battle with depression, suicidal ideation, and despair—providing the love and hope of Jesus in moments of deepest darkness.
Kay Warren, known for cofounding Saddleback Church with her husband, Pastor Rick Warren, joins Stephanie Daniels to discuss a deeply personal topic. Kay is the mother of three adult children, including Matthew who lost his life to suicide at age 27 after years of chronic depression. Having walked beside her son through his suffering, and survived the anguish of his death, Kay has experienced firsthand the need for the church, and all believers, to extend compassionate support to people facing mental health struggles. Tune in for this critical call for the body of Christ to support people who battle with depression, suicidal ideation, and despair—providing the love and hope of Jesus in moments of deepest darkness.
Help is here! If you or a loved one is struggling with depression, suicidal ideation, or other mental health challenges, you are not alone…
Explore resources mentioned in this episode, and encouragement from Joni Eareckson Tada who has herself wrestled with deep depression.
Get your copy of Kay Warren’s book, Choose Joy: Because Happiness Isn’t Enough
Hear Joni Eareckson Tada’s shares heart on how to battle depression
Get your copy of Joni’s booklet, Navigating Depression: Hope for Heavy Hearts
Learn more about Kay and her ministry at www.kaywarren.com
For Christ-centered encouragement, practical tools, and comprehensive resources for families and churches around mental health visit https://www.hopeforbrightertomorrows.org
Find additional resources and support through the National Alliance on Mental Illness (NAMI) | Mental Health Support, Education & Advocacy
KEY QUESTIONS:
KEY SCRIPTURE:
Stephanie Daniels:
Hi friends! I’m your host, Stephanie Daniels, and you’re listening to the Joni and Friends Ministry Podcast. We’re sharing hope as we answer real questions about disability. Join us every week for an honest and encouraging conversation, along with practical ways to include people with disability in your church and community. So, grab a seat, and let’s jump in!
Kay Warren is known for co-founding Saddleback Church with her husband, pastor Rick Warren. It's one of the largest evangelical churches in the US today. But Kay is actually joining us to share on a deeply personal topic. She's the mother of three adult children, including Matthew, who lost his life to suicide after years of mental health struggles. Kay experienced firsthand the grief of walking through her son's challenges, frustration with the mental healthcare system, and the pain of judgment from others as she struggled and fought to get Matthew the help he needed.
Kay has turned her profound loss into a personal mission as she helps other families who are struggling with serious mental illness. Welcome, Kay. It's an honor to have you with us.
Kay Warren:
Thank you so much, Stephanie. I've been looking forward to this conversation.
Stephanie Daniels:
Oh, we are so glad you're here. Let's get started. Would you tell me about your son, Matthew? What was he like growing up and when did you first notice his challenges with mental health?
Kay Warren:
Very, very early on. He was a toddler, and we knew that he was different than his older brother and sister. I think because he was my third, I had a basis of comparison and I knew he didn't act, or respond, or behave, had more emotional difficulties. When he was two, we couldn't play Candy Land or Chutes and Ladders with him because if he lost, he would throw the board game and cry and wail and I couldn't comfort him. He was inconsolable and it was like, okay, well that's unusual. That's different. He just had a negative mood all the time.
He just, bless his little heart, he was struggling. But it never occurred to me that mental health could be part of his problem. I didn't know children could experience mental health problems. I didn't know that.
Stephanie Daniels:
Mm-hmm.
Kay Warren:
And so, when he was seven, and he started coming home from school and saying he was sad, and that was just his refrain every day, "I'm sad." And he lost interest in schoolwork, and he lost interest in playing with his friends. And he just was morose and moped around.
Then he lost interest in video games, and that was kind of, oh my goodness for a little boy to not wanna play a video game, we just started realizing that something else was going on and I asked our children's pastor at church, "Can children be depressed?" And she said, "Yes, they can, and you need to see your pediatrician."
So, we did. He was diagnosed with depression and it just kind of was this cascade for the next 20 years of different, or additional, diagnoses.
Stephanie Daniels:
Mm-hmm.
Kay Warren:
Uh, around his mental health. From not only depression, but suicidality, early onset bipolar, OCD, panic disorder, body dysmorphic disorder, borderline personality disorder, a sleep disorder. I mean, his life was just really tortured.
Stephanie Daniels:
Mm-hmm.
Kay Warren:
And I think what that really says is that mental health is complex.
Stephanie Daniels:
Mm-hmm.
Kay Warren:
Whether those are all exactly the right diagnoses. What it says is this little boy was suffering, and he suffered really off and on until he took his life when he was 27. In between those terrible bouts of suffering and intense pain and distress, he was creative and funny and loving. He could make me laugh like nobody. He had a very tender heart for other people in pain. He had a relationship with Jesus, but as he got older, he got angry.
Stephanie Daniels:
Mm-hmm.
Kay Warren:
He, he was angry. He couldn't understand why he had suffered so much. And so, It was a combination.
Stephanie Daniels:
Mm-hmm.
Kay Warren:
Healthy Matthew was an absolute delight. Unhealthy Matthew actually became somebody that we didn't even really know very well. He just had changed so much by the time he passed away. It was a lifelong struggle.
Stephanie Daniels:
Yeah. You know, the conversation around the topic of mental health, especially within the church, has opened up a lot in recent years. When you were trying to get help from Matthew more than a decade ago, what attitudes did you encounter within the Christian community?
Kay Warren:
Yeah. Well, as you mentioned, we were at Saddleback Church and I can say with honest truth, we were met with compassion. We were met with people who were kind and cared about us, knew he was struggling, they tried to support him. I would say what we encountered at church was mostly people who just didn't understand.
Stephanie Daniels:
Mm-hmm.
Kay Warren:
They cared, but they might ask me, "So, so is Matthew doing better? Is he okay now?" As if he had just had the flu.
Stephanie Daniels:
Mm-hmm.
Kay Warren:
You know, instead of understanding, no, he has mental illness, and he's not going to just suddenly be better or feel better. So, there was just a lack of understanding.
I remember being at women's Bible studies and especially as he was a teenager. And you're sitting around with a group of women and everybody's telling about their week or whatever, and somebody might say, "Oh, please pray for my daughter. She's really, having trouble keeping those high as, and she's not gonna get that scholarship to this four-year college. Could you please pray for that?"
And in my heart, I'm thinking that, of course, I'll pray for you. Of course, that's your real life. But my prayer request, if I were honest, would be. "Last night, my son kicked a hole in the wall and said he wanted to die." So those were the times that I felt, even though I was with people who cared about us, they just didn't understand what our life was like.
Outside of our church, in other parts of the faith community, especially 20 years ago, there was an awful lot of stigma and prejudice, even against people who had mental health struggles. It was like, well, if you really love Jesus... you know?
Stephanie Daniels:
Mm-hmm.
Kay Warren:
Just pray more. Is there a sin you need to confess? Basically, it's your fault...
Stephanie Daniels:
Yes.
Kay Warren:
...and if you were a better Christian, maybe this wouldn't be happening to you. So, there was that kind of stigma, putting guilt on people for having mental health challenges. And I think there were people that didn't even believe it was real.
Stephanie Daniels:
Right.
Kay Warren:
You know?
Stephanie Daniels:
Right.
Kay Warren:
Either they didn't believe it was real, or if they did, it's really your fault and you need to do something different. Thankfully, a lot of that has shifted...
Stephanie Daniels:
Mm-hmm.
Kay Warren:
...to some degree. But, 20 plus years ago that was pretty common.
Stephanie Daniels:
Yeah. And I'm so glad you said that because that stigma can be so damaging. I was talking to my dog groomer the other day. Her father committed suicide and her uncle actually recently did a few weeks ago. Mental health challenges run in their family. And so, she was told something very damaging, and she just never recovered from it.
Kay Warren:
Yeah.
Stephanie Daniels:
It pushed her away. So, I think about you guys in the midst of such a difficult journey to be in such a prominent position. When you're in that role, it's kind of like you're in a glass house. So, what was it like for you and Pastor Rick to be leading one of the most well-known churches in the country while struggling with such profound parenting challenges?
Kay Warren:
As I said, because of the atmosphere within our church, we did okay there. Where it began to really wear on us was just trying to carry the burden of leadership and the deterioration of our son's mental health.
The last five years of his life, one of us had to always be home, had to be in town. We couldn't both be out of town at the same time, because he was living on such a fragile edge. It felt like any day could be the day. He started making attempts, and hospitalizations, and middle of the night emergencies, needing to talk him down off of the ledge basically. And so, somebody just had to be in town. So that curtailed some of the ministry that we were doing.
Stephanie Daniels:
Mm-hmm.
Kay Warren:
I stopped leading weekly Bible studies and things because again, I needed to be available to our son. So, the effect of his deteriorating mental health was this pressure of leadership and this equal pressure of a dearly loved son that we were doing everything we knew to do and so little effect, and very episodic. And just knowing that the way that he talked about his own life, he talked about suicide a lot.
Stephanie Daniels:
Mm-hmm.
Kay Warren:
And I called it sometimes living on the edge of hell.
Stephanie Daniels:
Yeah.
Kay Warren:
Just kind of sitting on the edge of hell, not knowing what was gonna be next.
Stephanie Daniels:
Yeah. Probably.
Kay Warren:
So that was a heavy burden in...
Stephanie Daniels:
Yeah.
Kay Warren:
...in leading while caring for him.
Stephanie Daniels:
Did you ever feel like you were waiting for the shoe to fall?
Kay Warren:
Oh, absolutely.
Stephanie Daniels:
Yeah.
Kay Warren:
Especially as that suicidality became chronic.
Stephanie Daniels:
Mm-hmm.
Kay Warren:
Wasn't just occasional. It was pretty chronic. You know, Matthew's depression and his mental health struggles were not a secret, and he was very open about them. He would tell strangers. It even became part of the illness I would say, to even talk about it to such an extent.
Stephanie Daniels:
Mm.
Kay Warren:
He wasn't making attempts every day, but it was every few months there would be some attempt, or an attempt to an attempt. It wore us down.
Stephanie Daniels:
Yeah.
Kay Warren:
You know, It wore us down. It wore him down. Wore his siblings down. You know, it wore everybody down because it was just relentless.
Stephanie Daniels:
Yeah. As you were talking earlier, I was thinking about the siblings, in this case. What are their ages at this time and how did they process?
Kay Warren:
So, it was Matthew. Then his brother was four years older sister. Six years older. So they were, young adults...
Stephanie Daniels:
Mm-hmm.
Kay Warren:
...in the early thirties when he passed away at 27. They had families by that time. There were nieces and nephews. And he was dearly loved. He was dearly loved. And he was a wonderful uncle, and he was a wonderful brother. But they also carried a very heavy weight of knowing he was suffering, knowing he was struggling. But siblings, and I've talked to lots of siblings over the last 12 years, lots of siblings experience that sense, that that one with the mental health challenges ends up kind of sucking all the life...
Stephanie Daniels:
Mm-hmm.
Kay Warren:
...out of the family or all the resources, or time and attention doesn't get spread evenly, and so other siblings can often feel neglected. So then they battle with the resentment of that but also loving their siblings. So, it can create a lot of ambivalent feelings and it's hard. It's just hard. But I feel for any of your listeners who are walking down this road, who have other children as well, it's rough on the family.
Stephanie Daniels:
Yeah. And it makes me wonder, because you guys dealt with this for so long, it started when he was seven, were there any efforts made just along the journey? Like check-ins or counseling or therapy for the siblings, for yourselves...
Kay Warren:
Oh, yeah. All of the above.
Stephanie Daniels:
Mm-hmm.
Kay Warren:
All of the above. We did absolutely everything, both for ourselves as individuals. For him, for the whole family. Everything you can think of, we tried to do.
I'm gonna say this, it may sound funny, but it, there's a reason for it. After Rick wrote The Purpose Driven Life...
Stephanie Daniels:
Mm-hmm.
Kay Warren:
...and, and it was a bestseller, and it brought in very hefty income. As we've talked about, and how we feel like God gave us the stewardship of affluence and influence based on that. People then tend to think that, oh, if they had the resources available that we did, that their loved one would've done better. And what I wanna say is that mental illness really is not a respecter of...
Stephanie Daniels:
Right.
Kay Warren:
...of, race, economics, location in the country, your family. It is not a respecter at all.
Stephanie Daniels:
Yes.
Kay Warren:
And you can have all the financial resources quote "necessary"...
Stephanie Daniels:
Mm-hmm.
Kay Warren:
...and it not change what's happening in your loved one. That doesn't mean that I don't want to have great resources for everybody. I do. And it's one of the failings in our country…
Stephanie Daniels:
Mm-hmm.
Kay Warren:
that we don't...
Stephanie Daniels:
Mm-hmm.
Kay Warren:
...have adequate mental health resources.
Stephanie Daniels:
Yes.
Kay Warren:
But all I'm saying is that you can give it everything you've got and that intractable wall of mental illness can still be something that your loved one can't climb over.
Stephanie Daniels:
Yeah. And I love that you said that because I think that the assumption would be, oh, well you guys are prominent, you've got status, position, whatever. But it doesn't matter who you are...
Kay Warren:
Yes. ...
Stephanie Daniels:
The enemy's gonna do what he can to take you out. And we hear from so many people across the world that will write in to Joni and Friends looking for encouragement and hope and they might be homeless or...
Kay Warren:
Yes.
Stephanie Daniels:
...they live in another country, and they don't have adequate means or access. And so, it just, it doesn't matter. None of that matters.
Kay Warren:
No. We're all just really in the same boat at the end of the day. We are all in some ways helpless to change what happens to our loved ones. It's like sometimes somebody has a cancer, and you can give it every treatment, every...
Stephanie Daniels:
Mm-hmm.
Kay Warren:
...possible adjunct therapy, everything possible. And they are still terminal and they might die.
Stephanie Daniels:
Mm-hmm.
Kay Warren:
And so, I think it's similar. We can give everything that we have, and it still is not necessarily going to heal somebody, cure somebody, make their intense struggle go away.
Stephanie Daniels:
Yeah. Well, Kay, I'm curious, as we've been talking, I, I'm wondering how did you and your family cope with the stress that was looming over you all during this time?
Kay Warren:
Sometimes not well, honestly. As I said, it felt his illness was so serious. It just felt relentless often. And there was a period of time that I thought, I don't know if he takes his life, if I'm gonna be able to survive this. I don't know that my faith is really tough enough, strong enough, to survive this. I don't know how I would get through it.
And it was actually because of that, that I began a study on joy. Because I kept thinking, I am not living with joy. I can't imagine how I could be any more joyful if Matthew were to die. I will fall completely apart. And it was out of me making an effort to fortify my spiritual skeleton, if you will.
Stephanie Daniels:
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Kay Warren:
To strengthened my spiritual skeleton...
Stephanie Daniels:
Yes. Yep.
Kay Warren:
...that I did a very intense study of joy and ended up writing a book, Choose Joy. And even though I had to obliquely mention it, because it was known within our church, but I didn't want any other notoriety around him. So, I had to kind of be cagey about who it was that was suffering with mental illness and why I was so fearful. But after he passed away, I was able to write an addendum that said it was my son, and it was what I learned during this time that helped me cope with his death.
And it's really true. If I had not done that diving deep into, joy is not about what happens externally, it's not even about what happens internally, it's about me being connected to the eternal. So, getting the internal and the external connected to the eternal. That is what got me through.
Rick and I both talk about choosing joy and we don't mean by that, oh, happy, slappy, clappy, happy, that kind of...
Stephanie Daniels:
Right.
Kay Warren:
...stuff that is so right on the surface.
Stephanie Daniels:
Yeah.
Kay Warren:
And has no depth or no oomph to it, or no grit. No, it's more about knowing that God can be trusted and he is good. I can have joy because I am connected to the eternal, regardless of what happens externally and internally.
So that was one of the ways that I coped during that time. And I also built what I call a hope box. I have an actual literal box that had hope on the top and I began to fill it with verses that I could clinging to in the middle of the night...
Stephanie Daniels:
Mm-hmm.
Kay Warren:
...when I was not sure what was gonna happen. I didn't know what the outcome was gonna be. And these verses just held me so solidly. I don't know about you, but sometimes, middle of the night, I can't remember where a verse is. Where in the world is that verse in the Bible? I don't know, 'cause my mind has gone offline, my brain has gone offline.
Stephanie Daniels:
Sure.
Kay Warren:
But I would write them on cards and put them in this hope box so that I could always pull them out and just rehearse...
Stephanie Daniels:
Yes.
Kay Warren:
...faith, rehearse hope, rehearse my belief that God was in control and was going to take care of Matthew. But then he died. Then my faith, it was like fruit basket turnover. It's like, throw all the fruit up in the air and wait to see which lands back on the table. It was very upending, personally.
Stephanie Daniels:
I can't imagine that. And something I heard you share on another podcast; you were talking about a book that you read, about reality, grief, and hope. You got hope from that place of grief?
Kay Warren:
Yes. After Matthew died, in fact, fairly recently, within the last five years. I did read a book talking more about the nation of Israel and their relationship to God.
Stephanie Daniels:
Mm-hmm.
Kay Warren:
But I took from that is that I have to learn how to look reality in the face, the truest reality of my life, the things that aren't gonna change, the things that might never change. And when I do that, that's gonna produce some grief...
Stephanie Daniels:
Mm-hmm.
Kay Warren:
...cause I'm gonna see, not only did I lose my son, there are other dreams that I've had for my life that I don't know that they're gonna happen the way that I thought they would or...
Stephanie Daniels:
Sure.
Kay Warren:
...other losses. So, when you look at reality, it will produce grief, and that scares most of us. So we'd rather live in our pretend world, our magical world where we're just gonna wake up someday, and everything's gonna be different. That magical thinking that of course never works, but we still try to operate out of. So you look at reality and it will produce grief. But from that grief, a true hope can emerge. A really strong and gritty hope.
As human beings, as Christians, we don't like grief. We don't wanna deal with grief. It scares us, it hurts us. We don't know what to do with it. And so, we wanna just jump over grief into hope. Like you can just pull vault from reality over grief into hope, and that's impossible. You cannot get to hope without going through grief. And so that was so powerful to me in helping shape how I grieve, how I talk to other people....
Stephanie Daniels:
Mm-hmm.
Kay Warren:
...who are, maybe they have not lost a loved one. Maybe they're still in that place of praying and hoping that there will be a healing, a recovery, a stability that comes. But still, even facing the reality of what can happen. The powerful part of that is not only that hope can be born from grief, but it is basing our hope, our faith, all of it in Jesus, not in an outcome...
Stephanie Daniels:
Yes.
Kay Warren:
...that happens here on this earth. This is what I tell parents all the time, you can have hope for your children. In fact, you should have audacious hope for your children. But your hope has to be in Jesus.
Stephanie Daniels:
Yes.
Kay Warren:
You have hope for, but your hope is in Jesus. Because what happens here on this earth is not within our control.
Stephanie Daniels:
Right.
Kay Warren:
It just isn't. And if our faith rests on a certain outcome for our loved ones, or ourselves, if that's where our hope is, it will crumble.
Stephanie Daniels:
Mm-hmm.
Kay Warren:
It, it will crumble.
Stephanie Daniels:
Yeah.
Kay Warren:
So our hope has to be in something, in someone that cannot be taken away, cannot shift, cannot be altered, cannot decide he doesn't love us, or that we've done one too many things and that's it. It's, no, he's the unmovable rock. Our hope...
Stephanie Daniels:
Yes.
Kay Warren:
...has to be in Jesus.
Stephanie Daniels:
He is a firm foundation. That's so powerful. Thank you so much for sharing that.
I just think that you do carry yourself with so much grace, Kay. And the way you describe Matthew's passing is filled with so much of that grace. You write, "after 20 years of intense struggle, serious mental illness became a burden Matthew could no longer carry." Can you share how your experience with Matthew changed your understanding of mental health and those who struggle?
Kay Warren:
I think I felt some very deep compassion for people who live with depression since that was Matthew's primary diagnosis. He had a lot of peripheral other things that, as I said, got complicated, but at the heart of it was a depression that never really abated for 20 years. That has led me to have such a respect for people, Christians particularly, who keep walking with Jesus even when it doesn't feel good.
Most of us who don't have depression, we'll have maybe moments or periods of depression and sadness, and it doesn't feel good at all. But to think of living for years...
Stephanie Daniels:
Mm-hmm.
Kay Warren:
...you know, with depression that doesn't really abate. Now that's somebody whose faith I admire. Because it doesn't feel good for them often.
I remember being in the Dallas Airport. At that time it was a hub of receiving US service men and women back from, I believe Afghanistan.
Stephanie Daniels:
Mm-hmm.
Kay Warren:
There was this announcement over the loudspeaker, if you got time in between your flights, come to gate so and so because there's gonna be US service folks coming in and you can be part of the welcome. And I looked at my assistant, we're like, we've got time. Let's go. So, we went and we stood in this crowd of people welcoming men and women coming in and, to cheer them, to applaud them, to weep with them. It was incredibly moving.
I thought later that day of what it is like in heaven, when those faithful warriors here, men and women of faith who live with depression. We think that the best hallelujahs and praise for people coming into heaven for those faithful servants who just men, they are just sharp and they are loving Jesus and they're doing this for him and they're doing that. And I just thought what about the brothers and sisters who have lived for years and years and years where it does not feel good, but they have stayed faithful to Jesus. I really think maybe the loudest cheers are for them, not for those of us for whom faith came so much easier.
I have a newfound respect and honor actually for people who keep trusting God and his goodness...
Stephanie Daniels:
Yes.
Kay Warren:
...when it doesn't feel good, when the circumstance doesn't change, when they don't get the victory, when they don't get the hallelujahs. When they're the folks in Hebrews 11. They're the others.
Stephanie Daniels:
Yeah.
Kay Warren:
They're the ones who didn't see the miracles. They were the ones who never saw the promise in the way that they so longed for it here.
Stephanie Daniels:
Wow.
Kay Warren:
I think the church owes them a huge debt of gratitude for showing the rest of us how to keep walking in faith.
Stephanie Daniels:
That makes me emotional. I've never heard it put that way, but that's very powerful. The people that continue to put one foot in front of the other, and it's not perfect, and it's not pretty, but they keep showing up. That's powerful. That's very powerful. Wow.
Well, Kay. How has grief impacted your faith?
Kay Warren:
Wow. Well, it's been a wrestling match. I have been a Christian since I was eight years old, so my entire life I've walked with Jesus. I would've said, I, I had developed a pretty robust faith over those years.That hope box that I mentioned earlier where I had filled it with these verses that kept me solid. I, I believed that God was going to heal Matthew. I didn't know when. I didn't know how, but I believed. I had a verse in Psalms that I held onto, that it was like standing together. I had a vision in my head of us standing together, praising God in the sanctuary, you know, right out of a Psalm. And I held that in my head and believed it. And then when Matthew died, that all just crumbled. It just all crumbled. It was not going to happen. It wasn't, he was dead.
Stephanie Daniels:
Mm-hmm.
Kay Warren:
And I did not know what to do with that. Honestly, I had invested so much faith, and belief, and prayer, and effort into being convinced that even though it was hard, and even though it looked bad, that God was going to heal Matthew and when that is not what happened I felt like hope mocked me.
My hope box, it was sitting there next to my Bible where I have my time with Jesus every day. And here's this box with hope emblazoned across it. But it just felt like hope had completely let me down, and God had completely let me down. And I took the verses out of that hope box, and I, I thought I threw 'em away, but I found him a few months later. Evidently, I had tucked him away in the back of some drawer. Because they weren't true for me. It's not that they weren't true, God's word was true, but they weren't true for me in the way that I had anticipated. What I had believed would happen, did not happen. And then that box just sat empty. And it was reflective, actually, of my walk with God. I, I didn't doubt God's existence...
Stephanie Daniels:
Mm-hmm.
Kay Warren:
...I just began to doubt his goodness.
Stephanie Daniels:
Yeah.
Kay Warren:
And that's where I wrestled. I wrestled for a while. At first I thought I was just hurt. People would say, "Are you angry at God?" And I'd say, "No, I'm not angry, but I, I am hurt. It's like my best friend betrayed me."
Stephanie Daniels:
Mm-hmm.
Kay Warren:
And I don't know what to do with that. And then as time went by, I realized that under that hurt was anger and a lot of questions that I could not answer. And I did not know the "whys" and the "where fors", and I had no answer as to why... 'cause God could have stopped Matthew that day. He could have prevented him, and he didn't. And he could have healed him here and he didn't. And there were all these things that God could have because he has the power to do so, and he didn't. And I just didn't know what to do with all of that.
A friend gave me this little pot, this little orange pot that she called my mystery pot. She said, this is your mystery pot. It represents that your faith is going through the fire. And what's at stake here is not your faith for Matthew, but your faith for you.
Stephanie Daniels:
Mm-hmm.
Kay Warren:
And so I did two things. One, I began to rebuild my hope box because I knew I couldn't live without hope.
Stephanie Daniels:
Yes.
Kay Warren:
I didn't know what to do about it, but I knew I couldn't live without it. And the first verse that I put in there was 1 Corinthians 15:43, "These bodies are buried in brokenness, but they are raised in glory. They are buried in weakness, but they are raised in strength." And it was like, yes, that I can believe that. I believe that I can hold to that I'm certain of. And that was the first verse that went back into my hope box.
But I still had these questions, so I began to write 'em out on little strips of paper. Stuff like, "God, you could have kept Matthew from dying that day. You did not."
Stephanie Daniels:
Mm-hmm.
Kay Warren:
"Why?" That went in the mystery pot. "Was he thinking of us when he died?" I don't know. Went on a piece of paper in my mystery pot. "What good were all the prayers I prayed for all those years? Where did they go? What did they do? Did they accomplish anything?" I don't know. They're on a piece of paper inside my mystery pot. For me, I felt like God was not trying to shut my questions down. He didn't judge me for having questions.
Stephanie Daniels:
Right.
Kay Warren:
He didn't judge me for not having the perspective that he does. I do not have God's perspective on this life, or my own life. I have questions. But within the safety of his embrace, wrestling with God, knowing that he's not gonna push me away for having questions, doesn't make me a terrible Christian.
Stephanie Daniels:
Right.
Kay Warren:
Because I have questions. Doesn't mean my faith is weak. It means I am a human being who cannot see what God can see.
Stephanie Daniels:
Yeah.
Kay Warren:
And no one on this earth can see it either. So, I have questions. But they're in this mystery pot next to my hope box because I believe that is what develops a gritty faith for us, is having this robust faith that can have hope and can have mystery at the same time. You cannot have a robust faith with only one of them. If you only have hope. But it's never been tested.
Stephanie Daniels:
Mm.
Kay Warren:
If you've never had those unanswerable questions that you don't know what to do with. You don't have hope, you have optimism. And if you only have the questions, why, God, what about this? How did this happen like this? I don't get this and you don't have hope that we have a God who will answer all of those someday, you'll become a bitter, caustic person who might walk away from faith entirely. You have to have faith and mystery to have a robust faith that will take you through whatever this life brings your way.
Stephanie Daniels:
That is the nugget of all nuggets, and I love the picture of mystery and hope together. They have to exist together. This is so good. I'm so glad you're here sharing all of this with us because I love the idea, and I've heard this before, but God is not afraid of our questions. And I believe he does want us to ask those questions 'cause he shows up he gives you peace. He gives you hope...
Kay Warren:
Well, he brings us,
Stephanie Daniels:
...in the process he brings,
Kay Warren:
he brings us himself. Stephanie.
Stephanie Daniels:
Yes.
Kay Warren:
What he gives me now is his presence and that he promises to always give.
Whether or not our questions find any satisfactory answer or not. I don't know. They probably won't, but he always gives himself.
Stephanie Daniels:
And that's what we want.
Kay Warren:
Yeah. We need the comfort and the presence of God more than we even need our questions answered.
Stephanie Daniels:
So beautiful. You have such a depth and a wealth of experience and wisdom and anointing and I'm just drinking it all in as I know our listeners are as well.
So, you have turned your personal pain into a spiritual mission. You're now helping other families struggling with serious mental illness. I'd love to hear about Breathe and Hope for Brighter Tomorrows.
Kay Warren:
I'd love to talk about that because to me it is a joy filled opportunity to serve other families. Right after Matthew passed away, I probably spent five or six years as a suicide prevention advocate. And tried to work with families who had lost someone to suicide. Very much about advocacy, calling the church, involved at the government level on a task force on national suicide prevention. That's where I spent my energy and my advocacy. And after about five or six years of that, I realized it was helpful. It was good. I was doing something that was meaningful and was helpful to other people, but I didn't receive a lot of joy from it myself, and I was carrying a very heavy burden of other people's total and utter sorrow. I was dealing still with my own and found it was very heavy.
And I asked the Lord if there was a way that I could remain engaged in mental health, something around mental health, mental illness, families. And he just gave me this idea of reaching out to mothers like me, other women like myself, who had felt so alone, who did not find a home within the women's group at church, just because other women didn't know what I was going through, didn't know how to help me, didn't know how to support me or even pray for me.
So I started a ministry called Breathe. The idea was that it is a rest stop on a very long journey, of mental illness where you can pause and breathe, sigh, take a little rest, get some refreshment, some nourishment, get back in your car, get back on that same road, but you're refreshed, you're rejuvenated.
So, we do breathe retreats. Two a year respite retreats for moms. We do monthly free zoom calls with mental health professionals or other people with lived experience so that parents can listen, talk. We have a private Facebook page where moms can come and just share their prayer request. Just dump their prayer requests, beg for somebody to pray for 'em that day. Or where did you go when you were feeling this, and all these moms just jump in with prayer. It's not a, well, I tried this, and I try it... I mean, sometimes there is some of that, but it's not that as much as it's just, sister, I am with you.
Stephanie Daniels:
Yeah.
Kay Warren:
We are lifting you today. I am praying for your child by name. And then it is this beautiful place of...
Stephanie Daniels:
Yeah.
Kay Warren:
...of support. And I love it, Stephanie. I love it. I love seeing moms. See, for me, it was like their kids are still alive. There is still hope for some beautiful things to happen in the lives of their children. And if I can help strengthen the mom who then goes and relates differently having hope for her child, but her hope being in Jesus.
Stephanie Daniels:
Yeah.
Kay Warren:
Then we have done something significant possibly to even help save a life. That's joyful to me.
Stephanie Daniels:
It's wonderful. I was trolling your social media before we got on this podcast today, and I was just so blessed by the testimonials that these women were sharing. One of them, they're wonderful. One was just saying, "It didn't take long to realize I was with my people. It didn't take long for me to experience those, ' Wait? You too? It's not just me?'" I love that. She said, "You gave me space to process what happened to me." And another one said, "My circumstances haven't changed, but I've changed. And so, I know that I can go back and be in my same circumstances, but not have to exist under the covers." And I love that.
Kay Warren:
You know what? I have goosebumps. I get goosebumps every time because it's true. I know the faces, I know those women. I know that to be transformational time…
Stephanie Daniels:
Oh gosh.
Kay Warren:
…for them. And that sense of I am not alone on this painful journey. Ugh. Yeah. I love it.
Stephanie Daniels:
It is so good. I was so blessed just hearing those testimonies. And so, my question was, and you answered it, so this is for women.
Kay Warren:
The retreats are for women.
Stephanie Daniels:
Uh huh.
Kay Warren:
The monthly Zoom calls are for parents.
Stephanie Daniels:
Okay.
Kay Warren:
And then we've reached out to start a "Dads" cohort.
Stephanie Daniels:
I love it.
Kay Warren:
Dads only. And then our first couples event. So we're broadening as our nonprofit grows and we're able to have greater capacity for serving people. Yeah.
Stephanie Daniels:
It's so beautiful.
Kay Warren:
It's reaching.
Stephanie Daniels:
It's so needed. You're reaching people. And I wondered, there's the National Suicide Hotline and I don't know how steeped in biblical truth or anything that is. Is there anything available like that in the Christian realm?
Kay Warren:
In the faith. I know, uh, Rick's Daily Hope broadcast, there is a call center. It's not 24/7, but there are people there who are definitely gonna be responding. And they've received some training around people who are in either a crisis themselves, a mental health crisis, or a family member. They will at the very least, pray with intelligence and wisdom for people there.
I also know NAMI, the National Alliance of Mental Illness, A Warm Line, and then the 988 as you said, National Crisis and Suicide Lifeline has trained people who will listen, who will offer a very warm hand for anyone in crisis, and I'm sure there are other large ministries that have lines to call, but we definitely need more.
Stephanie Daniels:
Yeah. Yeah. I hate that you have had to walk this road, but the beautiful thing that's come out of it is Breathe and a Hope for Brighter Tomorrows. And like you said, you're intervening and helping and stepping in to bring hope to these parents who still have their children and encouraging them that they can keep putting that foot in front of the other.
Kay Warren:
I would take Matthew back in a heartbeat if I could.
Stephanie Daniels:
Sure. Yeah.
Kay Warren:
So, I don't look at it as like, oh, Matthew died, and this wonderful thing happened; I look at it as this is such a perfect illustration of God bringing beauty from ashes.
Stephanie Daniels:
Yes.
Kay Warren:
The ashes of his death are painful, they are true ashes and God brings beauty from ashes.
Stephanie Daniels:
Mm. So good. Sorry. I just am like, yeah, this is just really ministering to my heart. I've not experienced anything so devastating. I'm so glad you're here sharing with us today.
We hear from a lot of people that are struggling and a Scripture that we often share comes from Lamentations where Jeremiah writes in Lamentations 3:19-25, it says, "The thought of my suffering and homelessness is bitter beyond words. I will never forget this awful time as I grieve over my loss, yet I still dare to hope when I remember this. The faithful love of the Lord never ends. His mercies never cease. Great is his faithfulness. His mercies begin afresh each morning, and I say to myself, the Lord is my inheritance. Therefore, I will hope in him. The Lord is good to those who depend on him, to those who search for him."
And Joni, when she'd had her accident, this Scripture really ministered to her, she was having thoughts of suicide, and she spent so many hours searching the Scriptures for answers for her despair. And as she studied, she got to know God's character more and more. And her confidence in his love and concern for her grew. I'm just so encouraged that she did the digging. That's not easy to do the digging.
I'm curious, what advice would you give to someone seeking to support a family struggling with mental health challenges or somebody who is contemplating suicide, what advice would you give them?
Kay Warren:
Well, kind of two different things a little bit. I always believe there's a role for the church, I think there's a very significant role for the faith community. The church can do simple things that can make a huge difference. I base it around an acrostic, C-H-U-R-C-H.
Every single church, whether it's a house church of 10 people or a church of 300 or a mega church, these same six things every church can do. Every church can make a decision to care for people and their families. It starts with a decision. If a church makes a decision, we're going to be about caring for people with mental health and mental illness. Right there, you're miles ahead of people who don't. So care for.
Help, help with practical needs, mow a lawn, give a gift card, take care of somebody's children, drive them to their therapy appointment, those practical things that don't cost any money, but
that make such a difference. Volunteers come and study, where the places where if people are in need right now, where can they go? Don't let people come to the church and everybody goes, I don't know. I don't know. When people come seeking help, there's already a known thing that they can do.
Remove the stigma. That doesn't cost any money. But it is one of the most powerful things we can do for people is to remove the stigma. To collaborate with the community. Church we're not mental health professionals, but there are wonderful mental health professionals in every community who can come help educate a community. And then offer hope. Like, like we've been talking about. It's not up to the medical community or the government to offer hope, but it is the responsibility of the church.
Stephanie Daniels:
Mm-hmm.
Kay Warren:
It's in our DNA. So those six things. Every church could do to make a difference for a family or an individual living with mental health issues.
If you are somebody who is struggling with depression or suicidal thoughts, do not struggle alone. I think that's probably the most important thing. We all struggle and in our struggles we tend to isolate. We tend to just shut down, keep it all to ourselves, don't wanna burden people with our pain, not really sure that they would understand if we did share it, maybe feel guilt or shame for feeling so bad.
And anybody who's listening, who is struggling with suicidal thoughts or just even the idea of, I just maybe I just won't wake up tomorrow. Wouldn't it be better off if I just didn't wake up tomorrow? To recognize that for what that is...
Stephanie Daniels:
Yes.
Kay Warren:
...and reach out. Get help. Don't struggle alone. Tell someone in your family. Tell a Bible study leader, tell a therapist, tell somebody you work with. But reach out and let somebody know where you're at, so that people have the opportunity to be there for you, be there, reach out, and call 9-8-8.
Stephanie Daniels:
Yeah.
Kay Warren:
Like I said, trained professionals there. It’s anonymous, it's confidential, and you don't have to be threatening to do something. You can just be feeling so bad.
Stephanie Daniels:
Yeah.
Kay Warren:
And there will be people there who will listen and point you to other help and other hope.
Stephanie Daniels:
I love that.
Kay Warren:
Most of all, you're not alone. You're not alone.
Stephanie Daniels:
Yeah.
Kay Warren:
Not alone.
Stephanie Daniels:
100%.
Kay Warren:
And as bad as it feels today, tomorrow could be different. That's such an important thing to realize when people are thinking about taking their lives. I have a really good friend who lives with chronic suicidality. That just means she thinks about it all the time. And she says, "where I've kind of come to in my mind is, it would be easier for me to die. I wouldn't be in pain. However, I don't know what tomorrow might hold. It might be easier, but it's not better. Tomorrow could be the day that things change, the color comes back to my world, and I stay alive for that possibility."
Stephanie Daniels:
Wow. How important is it for people to have that mentality, that thinking that tomorrow could be different. Tomorrow could be better. I love practical tips and ways that I can step in and bridge the gap for somebody.
Kay Warren:
Yeah.
Stephanie Daniels:
And so, I'm so glad that you share that 'cause we like to help churches start disability ministries if they're looking to do that. Maybe a church today is hearing this, somebody at a church looking for ways that they can intervene in the lives of people dealing with mental health struggles.
Was there something that helped you during that season that you were navigating? Or something that would've helped that you know of now?
Kay Warren:
Before Matthew passed away?
Stephanie Daniels:
Mm-hmm.
Kay Warren:
Or after he...
Stephanie Daniels:
Yeah.
Kay Warren:
Before he...
Stephanie Daniels:
Kind of in both like the before and the after and in that process of just...
Kay Warren:
I think truly it was my faith and family and friends, that's how I've gotten through. My faith and having the freedom to know that God was not judging me for my deep sorrow or my questions. Just being convinced of that allowed me the freedom to wrestle within the safety of his arms. It allowed me to wrestle through my doubts, my questions and establish again for myself a faith and a hope that was real and gritty. So, I think just having people around me. I pursued people who gave me that freedom.
Stephanie Daniels:
Yes.
Kay Warren:
And so I would say be that for somebody else.
Stephanie Daniels:
Mm.
Kay Warren:
Be that safe, welcoming presence that lets somebody struggle with their faith, struggle with their doubt, struggle with their why’s, and hold it for them, be a container that they can pour it in. Be that safe place where they can process it and then put your arm around them.
Stephanie Daniels:
Yeah.
Kay Warren:
You don't have to convince them. You don't have to give them a sermon. You don't have to give them verses. What they need in that moment is the comfort, and you can be God's arms to them.
Stephanie Daniels:
Mm-hmm.
Kay Warren:
Let your tears mingle with theirs. Put your arm around them. Be the presence. Make the invisible God visible with your presence so that people who are suffering, and in pain, and struggle, and grief, do not struggle alone.
Stephanie Daniels:
Mm-hmm.
Kay Warren:
I had that in both my family and my friends. So as my faith was going through this crucible there were places for me to land. And from that, I can honestly say, even though there's so much about God that I do not understand, in fact, I probably understand less than I've ever understood.
Stephanie Daniels:
Yeah.
Kay Warren:
And there's more that doesn't make sense to me. I'm more convinced than ever of the goodness of God. I have seen the goodness of God in the land of the living. I wait with patience for that glorious resurrection day when I see Jesus and Matthew. My, my questions will either evaporate into thin air, or God will sit down with me and go over them together. Either way, it will be in the presence of the God who has loved me and been my faithful friend. And I can’t wait for that day.
Stephanie Daniels:
I love that so much. And I love that you explain how we can just be a safe space for people and somebody who's suffering. Us being able to share our stories of suffering and being vulnerable with one another helps to push us toward Christ. Not having the answers, but like you said, letting our tears mingle. Praying for that friend being...
Kay Warren:
Yes.
Stephanie Daniels:
...the arms of Jesus, that's just so beautiful. And that's what we're here for as the body of Christ. So beautiful. Well Kay, I can't thank you enough for sharing so openly and vulnerably on this really deeply personal topic, just.
Kay Warren:
Thank you, Stephanie. You're a good listener. You're good listener.
Stephanie Daniels:
You're captivating.
Kay Warren:
You're a, you're an empathetic presence. You make it easy.
Stephanie Daniels:
Well, I so appreciate you and I know it will encourage many people who are living with similar challenges, everything you've shared today. You poured out for us and I'm so thankful that you have. I would just love to be able to point people in a direction to find you if they want to go to Breathe retreat, if they need any resources you are able to share. So how can they find you?
Kay Warren:
Sure. The nonprofit that sponsors Breathe is Hope for Brighter Tomorrows.
Stephanie Daniels:
Mm-hmm.
Kay Warren:
And it's hopeforbrightertomorrows.org. You can find all about, Breathe on our website: lots of information about mental illness, families support groups, books, websites, free downloadables. It's a very robust site. Probably the first place I would send somebody is hopeforbrightertomorrows.org.
Stephanie Daniels:
Absolutely. And your social platforms are probably linked at the bottom there.
Kay Warren:
Yes.
Stephanie Daniels:
I'm gonna go follow you as soon as we're finished. What a blessing you are. You and your husband. You've been strengthening the body of Christ for years and with...
Kay Warren:
Decades!
Stephanie Daniels:
...the books that you've written, I'm telling you, you with the all the things, you are just a huge blessing and wealth to the body. So thank you so much for joining us today.
Kay Warren:
Thank you. It's been my honor.
Stephanie Daniels:
We hope this conversation touched your heart today. If it did, consider sharing it with someone who might be encouraged as well. And don't forget to follow us on your favorite podcasting platform so you never miss an episode.
With September 11th next week, we'll be taking a break to reflect on the events of that tragic day in 2001. And the way God faithfully showed up in our nation's darkest hours.
For an uplifting story, please listen to season six, episode 16 of our podcast to hear from a man who was guided to safety from the Twin Towers by a seeing eye dog. The link to this episode is in our show notes. May this story serve as a reminder that God heals our brokenness and truly gives beauty for ashes. God bless you.
© Joni and Friends