This week on the podcast, we are wrapping up our 3-episode Q&A series with Jenny Hill. Living with cerebral palsy, Jenny has shared about how to navigate painful situations and where to find hope in the midst of loneliness. Today, Jenny is completing her Q&A series with a powerful conversation about suffering, healing, and heaven. “Pain and suffering are probably the most universal experiences we have with other people.” Listen as Jenny shares how suffering has deepened her friendship with Jesus and helped her realize she is part of a bigger story. Don’t miss her powerful imagining of what heaven will be like and how living with a disability has helped frame her thoughts on eternity.
“He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away." –Revelation 21:4
This week on the podcast, we are wrapping up our 3-episode Q&A series with Jenny Hill. Living with cerebral palsy, Jenny has shared about how to navigate painful situations and where to find hope in the midst of loneliness. Today, Jenny is completing her Q&A series with a powerful conversation about suffering, healing, and heaven.
“Pain and suffering are probably the most universal experiences we have with other people.”
Listen as Jenny shares how suffering has deepened her friendship with Jesus and helped her realize she is part of a bigger story. Don’t miss her powerful imagining of what heaven will be like and how living with a disability has helped frame her thoughts on eternity.
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*Joni and Friends envisions a world where every person with a disability finds hope, dignity, and their place in the body of Christ. Join us in answering the call in Luke 14:21-23... until his house is full!
Founded by author and international disability advocate Joni Eareckson Tada, the ministry provides Christ-centered care that serves needs and transforms hearts through Joni's House, Wheels for the World, and Retreats and Getaways. Joni and Friends also equips individuals and churches with disability ministry training and provides higher education courses and internships through the Christian Institute on Disability. Find more encouragement through Joni's radio podcast, daily devotional, or by following us on Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube.
Crystal Keating:
I'm Crystal Keating and this is the Joni and Friends Ministry Podcast. Each week we're bringing you real conversations about disability and finding hope through hardship and sharing practical ways that you can include people living with disability in your church and community. Be sure to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts or find us at joniandfriends.org/podcast.
Jenny Hill is with us again, yay, to speak on healing, heaven, and suffering. Welcome back to the podcast, my friend. I'm really looking forward to this conversation.
Jenny Hill:
Thank you, Crystal. These are not light topics, but I think they're important ones.
Crystal Keating:
And you know what? I should have reversed the order of that to say suffering, healing, and heaven. Because you know, when I think about this life and how difficult it can be, and I get lost in my own discouragement, God brings to mind that this life is not all there is. And when I think about the life to come, that gives me a lot of hope. And so I'm so glad you're here to talk on these subjects. Jenny, we've had a couple of conversations. They've been quite remarkable. You live with cerebral palsy, and just on the topic of healing, has anyone ever approached you directly and tried to pray for your healing? And if so, what's that experience been like for you?
Jenny Hill:
Yes. People have approached me to pray for healing. I've been prayed for on stages and in churches. And probably the most odd circumstance was I was actually with a friend at a restaurant waiting for a table. He also has cerebral palsy. He uses crutches. I do not. And somebody came up to him and asked if they could pray for him just there. And he politely said, "No, thank you." And I thought this is so weird. Not only did you just get asked for healing in the middle of restaurant, but this person decided that just you needed the healing and not me. Okay.
Crystal Keating:
Was this a stranger?
Jenny Hill:
Yeah. Yeah.
Crystal Keating:
Oh my goodness.
Jenny Hill:
When I was a child, Crystal, I really did desire for the Lord to heal me, and I was prayed for in very public ways and I did not receive miraculous healing. I still live with cerebral palsy. And so that happened around the time I was 12 or 13. And I think until my early 20's, I really felt a sense of shame and failure about that. And have since really experienced the Lord's healing through the work of counselors and good Christian teaching and the church. But I still notice now, Crystal, if I go to church and someone is preaching on healing, like the miracles of Jesus, for example, often I don't know that that's what the sermon is going to be about that Sunday, I do experience a sense of grief. And not so much that I didn't get healed as a child, but more, I think the sober reality of I live with a lifelong disability, it impacts my life. And it's just sad that anybody experiences this. And I also, at the same time, really experience a longing for heaven.
Crystal Keating:
Yeah. You know, I think there's something very powerful in coming to a place of acceptance. Acceptance doesn't necessarily mean that we're not sad about the challenges we face, but there is a freedom in that. And I think in our last conversation, you really prayed a powerful prayer. You're in a situation where you feel yourself starting to compare with other people or noticing that you're in a different stage than others. Especially speaking of healing that to pray, "Lord, help me to embrace who I am and what you are doing in my life today." And I think it's really interesting and eye-opening that even being in church and hearing certain sermons can have a mixed reaction for you, like mixed emotions. And yet your focus again is on that ultimate healing. Well, Joni Eareckson Tada, our good friend has said, "God always seems bigger to those who need him most." And, "Suffering is the tool he uses to help us need him more." So, Jenny, what have you learned from your own pain and hardship, and how has suffering pushed you toward the Savior?
Jenny Hill:
Such simple questions. No, they're really deep, aren't they? And I'll start with this. I think often when we suffer, there is a tendency to become self-focused and to ask questions like, why me? And to think it's strange. And I've come to learn as I walked through life that pain and suffering is not unique to myself. In fact, it's probably one of the most universal experiences we have with other people. I think we suffer in unique ways, but it's actually a common experience. So in some ways it's helped to push me outside of myself. But you ask this, how does suffering push me towards the Savior? I think the best image of this Crystal for me is Jacob wrestling with the angel in the Old Testament. So if you ever Google that image, you're going to come up with different oil paintings and different statues and different images.
But if you really look, sometimes when Jacob is really wrestling with God, it's hard to understand if they're in a fight, or if they're in an intimate embrace. And I think sometimes in our pain and frustration, we want to turn away from God and be mad at God. But I think really often I've come to know God is the sustainer. And he's actually maybe the only thing I'm not mad at, or about, because God is helping me through this time. And Jacob, of course we know in that story, came away walking with a limp for the rest of his life, which I can identify with. But I think it was Philip Yancey that says the greats of the Bible would rather wrestle with God and come away limping than shut him out. I guess what I'm saying is I think it has opened up a dialogue between me and the Lord about things, and I wanted to come towards him.
I also have just a deep conviction that God, whatever else is true, God will sustain us and give us grace to live our life. We may not experience miraculous healing. We may or may not have access to great healthcare to help us through some of these challenges that we face, but God will sustain us. He'll give us grace, not only for the physical challenges and pain that we experience, but also the loneliness that we experience of maybe having a different human experience than other people who are not disabled. And also, I really believe, and I think this takes time, but God does love us, even when we're not miraculously delivered from the things that we find challenging in life. I think God really does love us and care for us.
Crystal Keating:
Oh, and it certainly can feel that he's abandoned us, and he's not listening, and that he doesn't care when we're in the midst of such great pain. But what a great image to think about in our times of wrestling, that it is the deep embrace, the strong embrace of God to hold us closer, to draw us near, to reveal more of himself to us, to reveal more of ourselves to us, and how much we need him. Well, Joni's also shared that in her life, God is more concerned with spiritual healing than he is with physical healing. And we were just talking about being prayed for for physical healing. How have you experienced God's healing in your life emotionally, spiritually?
Jenny Hill:
Well, I have experienced God's healing through God's people. I want to say that out loud because I think that's definitely part of it; through people who are gifted counselors, through people who are willing to pray for me in private ways, for me to be honest and say what was really going on. When the beatitudes say blessed are those who mourn, I believe it means blessed are those who can get on the outside what's going on in the inside. And to just have trusted spaces where I could actually say that and talk about how I view God and how the experience of praying for healing and not receiving it has impacted our relationship. So that's part of it. But I also think some of it actually was the work of God, God actually just touching me. And I think giving me the gift of faith and trust that he is trustworthy, that God walks with us.
I think I can affirm what Paul said, that his grace is sufficient for me. That's what we all in the end need is God's grace. And his power is made perfect in our weakness. That may seem lofty and out of reach. But I do think that in times of pain and in times of struggle, that is really when I lean in. C.S. Lewis is my very favorite author. I love The Chronicles of Narnia and this is a pretty famous quote, but he said this, "We can ignore even pleasure, but pain insists on being attended to. God whispers to us in our pleasures, speaks to us in our conscience, but shouts to us in our pain. It's his megaphone to rouse a deaf world." And I look back on a lot of my adult life, and especially when I see that I'm in pain or struggling, that's where I feel like I have sensed the friendship of God, the closest, because honestly, I think that's when I've cried out the most for him.
Crystal Keating:
And you've found him so faithful, and your ultimate focus is on heaven. And you've written about it on your blog. How do you envision heaven? And especially living life with a disability? How does that frame your thoughts on heaven?
Jenny Hill:
I do like to think about heaven, Crystal, because it reminds me that I'm in a bigger story. That one day we are going to get new bodies. And even if we're people who don't live with disabilities, we're all experiencing the effects of aging. Our bodies are changing, and the world is not as we wish it would be. And so it's hopeful for me to envision heaven and I would encourage our listeners, too, if you're having a bad day or even if you're having a good one, I think you would be so encouraged to sit down and imagine heaven. I would actually like to read my blog post about how I envision heaven. And I'm also going to share a scripture, both at the beginning and the end.
Crystal Keating:
Please do.
Jenny Hill:
Revelation 21:4 says. "He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."
Do you ever wonder about heaven? I let my imagination wonder. Here’s what I envision: I hope my room in heaven looks like the main reading room at the Library of Congress. Rows and rows of ancient books line dark wooden shelves. There are ornate ceilings, and lots of nooks and crannies with inviting views where I can snuggle up and read. The lake is at my doorstep. There’s a dock and a fishing boat and beautiful sunsets. The Great Blue Heron soars across the water, and because it’s heaven we can talk to each other; he tells me about fishing and I tell him all about my day.
There's lots of time to spend with loved ones. My little nieces and nephew come over every day. We have story time together and then go out and play in the sand. My childhood dog is there, tail whipping around and tongue hanging out as he pants a wet smile.
Heaven is a place where disability doesn’t exist. Personal care attendants will have to find a line of work. No one is fed with an IV or syringe. No one eats alone. No one knows what loneliness is. Shame is no longer something people carry. No one wears diapers or uses a wheelchair. My friend Kris who was injured in a car accident is out playing football once again and my friend Krista, born with a rare genetic condition causing her bones to fuse is out winning beauty pageants; not just because her new body is stunning, but because her character is too. My students who once had intellectual disabilities are earth are now solving math problems and teaching me things. My students with autism haven’t lost their childish charm, but in heaven, they can finally speak!
I have a whole closet full of high heels: hot pink, leopard print, but I think I’ll wear the red ones, for at least the first 100 years. Yeah, baby! My feet will match. That's what I want the most. If I really think about heaven, I think about the high heels. My feet will match because they will no longer be deformed. No scars will line my legs. I won’t have to manage fatigue any longer, suffer from back pain, or have an awkward posture. My balance will be perfect; my gait will be flawless. Maybe I’ll even take up running. And maybe I'll even do it in those red heels.
I hope there will be lots of time for learning. I want to sit down and have private tea with all my favorite English authors: C.S. Lewis, Paul Brand, J.K. Rowling, and Agatha Christie. I want to pick their brains about their wonderful imaginations, plot lines, and spend time thanking them for the way their words carried me through life. I want to take a graduate theology course from Paul the Apostle. I want to learn about animals from the animals themselves.
I think there will be lots of time to meet people. I hope we'll all have a reception line where we'll get to greet the people that have impacted our lives and the people we in turn have impacted. I hope I'll get to greet my ancestors as far back as I want, and spend lots of time with Grandma who left my life abruptly in 1998.
In heaven, I won't have to have to worry about seasonal depression anymore. There won't be clouds or darkness to drag me down. There'll be plenty of sunshine and endless light. There'll be times of quiet intimacy with God that are precious and also lots of time to worship together. I think there'll be lots of music and dancing. Our pitch will be perfect, and song will be rich and deep when we sing alone, but everything will come together when we sing as a choir. And every voice fitting together like pieces in a puzzle, creating a masterpiece that fills the expanse of heaven. And we will want to sing and praise him forever and ever.
And God will finally be with us. We will touch him and he will hold us. And we will look into his eyes and he'll stare back at us in that moment and we will finally know what it is to know and to be known...how I long for that day.
I'll end with 1 Corinthians 13: 12. It says, "Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known."
Crystal Keating:
Well, that just takes me outside of myself into longing for what the Lord has for us, for those who are in his love. I just so appreciate you sharing all of that. So much grander than we ever imagine. And I think it would be the enemy's joy if we made heaven boring and monotonous, when really it's grand, where God will be, and we will experience the greatest kind of love that we've never known. Jenny, it's always a comfort and a joy and an encouragement to talk to you. You are a woman of great faith and great trust. Thanks so much for coming back on the podcast once again to share your heart with us.
Jenny Hill:
Thank you. Take care.
Crystal Keating:
Thank you for listening today. If you've been inspired, please send me a message or leave a five-star review on your favorite app. That's a great way to help other people find encouragement from these conversations. And to get our next episode automatically, subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. I'm Crystal Keating and thank you for listening to the Joni and Friends Ministry Podcast.
© Joni and Friends
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