Philip Yancey, a renowned author and avid investigator of the mysteries of the Christian faith, joins Crystal Keating for a deep and honest conversation you won’t want to miss. No stranger to wrestling with doubt and suffering, Philip often writes about encountering God in our pain. In this episode he shares about his latest book and opens up about his own recent hardships, including diagnoses of Parkinson’s disease and cancer. He points to the life-giving truth while God may not remove our suffering, he is always faithful to redeem it.
Philip Yancey, a renowned author and avid investigator of the mysteries of the Christian faith, joins Crystal Keating for a deep and honest conversation you won’t want to miss. No stranger to wrestling with doubt and suffering, Philip often writes about encountering God in our pain. In this episode he shares about his latest book and opens up about his own recent hardships, including diagnoses of Parkinson’s disease and cancer. He points to the life-giving truth while God may not remove our suffering, he is always faithful to redeem it.
Philip Yancey is a best-selling author of more than 25 books, which have sold more than 17 million copies and been published in 50 languages. His works share from his personal experiences and exploration of the most basic questions and deepest mysteries of the Christian faith.
Yancey’s recent release, Undone: A Modern Rendering of John Donne's Devotions, tells of John Donne’s confrontations with God, and combines Donne’s timeless reflections with present-day commentary.
In his memoir, Where the Light Fell, Yancey reveals secrets of his turbulent childhood and teen years. Serving as a type of prequel to all his other books, this memoir takes the reader on a journey from that strict fundamentalism of his youth to Yancey’s dedicated search for grace and meaning. In piecing together his fragmented personal history and his search for redemption, Yancey gives testament to the enduring power of our hunger for truth and the possibility of faith rooted in grace instead of fear.
Yancey recently revised his best-loved What’s So Amazing About Grace?, a startling exploration of grace at street level, revealing it to be the healing force we need and the key to transforming a broken world.
Philip Yancey and his wife live in the foothills of Colorado, where they enjoy mountain climbing, skiing, hiking, bicycling, and other pursuits in the Rocky Mountains.
Find more from Philip Yancey at www.philipyancey.com
Crystal Keating:
This is the Joni and Friends Ministry Podcast and I’m your host Crystal Keating. Each week we’re bringing you encouraging conversations about finding hope through hardship and practical ways that you can include people living with disability in your church and community. As you listen, visit joniandfriends.org/podcast to access the resources we mention, or to send me a message with your thoughts.
It's an honor to welcome best-selling author, Philip Yancey, to the podcast today as we sit down to discuss his most recent book, “Undone,” which is a modern rendering of John Donne's devotions and meditations on longing for God in the midst of suffering. John Donne was a 17th century poet who had raw confrontations with God and offered to us universal truths on how to live and die well.
In addition to discussing "Undone," we'll also have an honest conversation as Philip faces an unwelcome diagnosis of Parkinson's disease and embraces the reality that although hardships may not be removed in this life, we can be assured of God's nearness and faithfulness to redeem our suffering. As a best-selling author, Philip often writes on encountering God in our pain. And in his books, he has explored the most basic questions and deepest mysteries of faith, guiding millions of readers with him.
Personally, as a newer Christian in my 20s, his most well known books, "What's So Amazing About Grace?" and "The Jesus I Never Knew" were revolutionary in helping me fall deeper in love with Christ. Additionally, I devoured his book, "In the Likeness of God", co authored by Dr. Paul Brand, as they dug deeply into the intricacies of the physical body and the remarkable biblical analogy of all believers together displaying the hands and feet of Jesus. In so many words, the human body is a likeness of God, its design revealing insights into the church, the body of Christ.
Most recently in his book, "Undone", focusing on the devotions of John Donne through a near death experience, Philip adds his own reflections on suffering, grief, and ultimate redemption, making this devotional an honest and unforgettable exploration of what it means to suffer honestly, express doubt and frustration, and lean into faith in times of hardship.
So without further ado, Philip, welcome to the podcast. It's such a pleasure to be with you today.
Philip Yancey:
Well, that's quite an introduction. Thank you very much, Crystal.
Crystal Keating:
Well, it really is a joy to be able to speak with you, and 25 years after I've read some of your books, it's kind of, come full circle in the way that God works through your writing in certain times, and just in certain questions, and I just love that most of your books allow us to ask honest questions of God. And so, that's been very helpful for me. Little did I know though that you had such a sweet relationship with Joni.
Philip Yancey:
That goes back 50 years, not just 25.
Crystal Keating:
Really? When did you first meet Joni?
Philip Yancey:
I think it was 1974, best I can recall.
Crystal Keating:
Wow. Yes, she speaks very fondly of you and your wife, Janet. So you know, she's an author herself. She's written extensively on how suffering has shaped the way she embraces her Savior. So, Phillip, I'd love to begin this conversation by asking you to just share how times of suffering or uncertainty have impacted your own faith.
Philip Yancey:
Well, that happens to be a very appropriate question these days. In 2023, so just last year, I got a diagnosis of Parkinson's disease. One of these diseases that comes out of nowhere, you just kind of notice strange symptoms that weren't there, you know, a week ago, and took them a while to diagnose, and it put me on a course of being very conscious of exercising and trying to do everything that I can.
They have good medication and I was doing fine with the Parkinson's disease and then just about a month ago, Crystal, I got a diagnosis of prostate cancer. So that was kind of a double whammy. Parkinson's one year and prostate cancer the next.
And I must say a lot of people who are listening probably identify with that. When something like that happens, especially a succession of things, you start thinking, "What is God trying to tell me? Is God punishing me for something?" You know? And I've looked at that very carefully, especially in my writing, and concluded that it's important to keep in mind that God is on the side of the one who's suffering. God is on my side. God is not the mean man up in the sky throwing lightning bolts at people he doesn't like. That's not God. God is what we see in Jesus, very clearly. And we know how Jesus treated people who were suffering, always on their side, always responding with compassion. And the Pharisees and the disciples both, two different groups, kept trying to pin him down. You know, "Why was this man born blind? Why was this man born crippled? Why did this person get leprosy?" And there's that one scene in John 9 where John tells the story of the man born blind. So it wasn't something he did to deserve punishment. He was born that way. And the disciples wanted to know, well, what did he do wrong? Or what did his parents do wrong? And Jesus said, neither one, but this happened so that the works of God could be made manifest in him. Sometimes those works are manifest in miraculous healing.
Not all that common. We don't call them commonalities. We call them miracles, you know...
Crystal Keating:
Right.
Philip Yancey:
...their unusual. They're not normal. But always we believe in some way to redeem the pain that happened. And I, I love the story and the person of Joni Eareckson Tada because she's just an icon for me of what redeemed pain looks like. From this terrible thing happening, to turning it into her calling as a person to bring a needed word of ministry to the church who hadn't really considered disabled people to a great degree before she came on the scene.
So now, you know, what do I do? Uh, I try to do everything I can to keep these diseases at bay and make decisions, but also find ways to redeem them. In my case, I'm a writer, so I try to redeem them by writing in ways that can help others who are going through their own trials, often physical.
Crystal Keating:
And that is God's goodness in you having an open heart to the Lord. Okay, how can I draw closer to you in these moments because you are for us, and you are with us, and how can I encourage others? And I want to say that our conversation is really timely because your most recent book, "Undone", focuses on the writings of John Donne. And honestly, I wish you would have written this like four years ago in the midst of COVID. I know this is kind of...
Philip Yancey:
Right...
Crystal Keating:
Right. It's like, "We needed this four years ago," but it's never too late. So I kind of, I was like, okay, I remember John Donne, I know the name. He was a priest and scholar, often considered the greatest poet of the 16th century, and his work is distinguished by his ability to explore the paradoxes of the Christian faith of blessing and suffering, of divine and human, and in the
midst of his own struggle with sickness, he devotes his writing to the nature of life and death itself. And so I was in Texas last week and I stopped by a bookstore and sure enough right on the shelf there was a book of his poetry, including elegies. And so, I thought, you know in preparation for our conversation I should read this. And I spent probably an hour trying to read through his brilliant lines, but Phillip, I, I had a hard time making sense of what he was saying. So I'm curious for you, when did you first encounter his work? And what was your reaction to it?
Philip Yancey:
There were phrases I took away from high school, "No man is an island", "Don't ask for who the bell tolls, the bell tolls for you." And that's still being taught. But in a funny way, John Donne helped launch my career, because I was struggling with the question of, "Why God allows bad things to happen to good people?" You know?
Crystal Keating:
Yes.
Philip Yancey:
"Why is pain so randomly distributed?" "Why doesn't God interfere more often?" Those questions that we all face at one time or another. And I came across a little book he wrote called, "The Devotions Upon Emergent Occasions."
He was by then the dean of St. Paul's Cathedral. He had quite an interesting past. He was Catholic in a time when England was turning Protestant and that cut into his career options. He was kind of randy, young, cavalier type person. And had a very checkered past, but he did have a conversion. He became a priest, and people would kinda roll their eyes and say, "Well, he's not really a priest. He just needed a job. It was a conversion of convenience." But he proved himself, and he became the vicar of the largest church in England, St. Paul's Cathedral. Then the great plague in one of its waves hit London. About a third of London died, about a third of it ran into the countryside looking for better air, and the people who are left were dying every day. And John Donne brought comfort to that community in crisis. People would pack out his sermons. Some people were actually trampled trying to get in to hear him speak.
Crystal Keating:
Wow.
Philip Yancey:
Because they wanted answers to the problems of pain that were being raised. And then, Donne himself got spots, and a fever. And they knew it was the bubonic plague and he didn't have long to live. So for the next, 23 days, even though he had no access to his Bible or any of his theological books, he just spent the time wrestling with God and he wrote this little book called "Devotions."
I read that book and I thought, wow. Such insight from a guy. You're right, he is one of the great poets of any time, in the English language, and he used his great mind, and his great vocabulary, and his way of expressing himself, wrestling with these questions, and I, I would buy copies, little paperback book, and give them to my friends.
And a couple of weeks later, I said, “did you read that book?” "Well, I tried." "Well, what do you mean? You didn't like it?" "Man, it's just tough sledding." And it's true. There are some funny things about that book. The theology, wrestling with God, could have been written yesterday.
Crystal Keating:
Yes.
Philip Yancey:
But it was written 400 years ago. And state of the art medicine in those days involved things like purging and cupping and bleeding and applying pigeons to your nose to take away the evil vapors. And so, you know, you're reading along, you read that kind of stuff. What is it? Why should I trust anything this guy says? And then his style, I counted one sentence at 234 words.
Crystal Keating:
Wow.
Philip Yancey:
And we're just not used to reading 234 words in our century. So even back then, around 1974, I thought I should do a revision of this and update the language. And I tried, but it didn't get very far. And I put it away in a file drawer until we had our own pandemic.
It was a big one. It wasn't as bad, mortality wise as the bubonic plague, but it was a big one. A lot of people were dying and a lot of people are asking these questions. So I spent a summer right in the middle of that lockdown period, on my own, trying to bring John Donne into our century.
I tried to keep his style as much as possible. I took out the old fashioned science, the old fashioned medicine trimmed up some of the sentences, broke them up. And I wanted to keep his eloquence as much as I could. It was a great privilege for me to deal with his words day after day.
And that was kind of my contribution to the pandemic. Of course, it came out mostly after the pandemic, but it's out there because those kinds of things keep happening. There are problems in this world. There will always be problems in this world. And here's an account by one of the great minds and great souls of the Christian faith who was struck down by an illness and yet found a way to bring insight and help to others.
Crystal Keating:
You know, one of the things that I kept thinking as I listened to it, I did an audio book of it, which was absolutely delightful to hear your voice, but then also to hear a different reader in a British accent reading your reflections of what he had written and you're rendering. I could, I could understand it much better, thank you very much. But I kept thinking...
Philip Yancey:
Great!
Crystal Keating:
The questions haven't changed.
Philip Yancey:
True.
Crystal Keating:
Us trying to make sense of suffering hasn't changed. That's a desire of our hearts to want to understand. And so, I think that sense of resonance, like, okay, this man who was a priest in this, you know, 1600s still wrestled with God in the same way and he wasn't afraid to approach God. And I think...
Philip Yancey:
Yes.
Crystal Keating:
That's where we really get some of the answers or the peace or we struggle, we wrestle with God until we go, okay, I accept what's happening or I, I see what you're doing and your hand in this. So I really appreciated that.
Philip Yancey:
Oh, that's great to hear.
Crystal Keating:
Well, you mentioned in the last year you were diagnosed with Parkinson's, and now this second blow of cancer. How have these diagnoses altered your experience with Donne's writings on suffering?
Philip Yancey:
Good thing you could ask. Early in the pandemic, I noticed that Time Magazine decided, you know, maybe we should ask a theologian what's going on?
Crystal Keating:
That was smart of them.
Philip Yancey:
Yeah, they went to N.T. Wright, Tom Wright, who's one of the best British theologians, and asked him to write a column. And he wrote a column on lament. That what we need to learn is how to lament. And he went through the Psalms, Jeremiah, Lamentations, Job, these books, saying, it's okay to tell God, "I don't like what's going on." To lament the state of the world. Don't filter your, prayers. Don't make them nice. Be, be honest, you know, tell God what you feel.
In, in my case, I must say it crosses my mind, "Come on, God, wasn't Parkinson's enough last year? Now I have...
Crystal Keating:
Right?
Philip Yancey:
...cancer." And at the same time, the place where I do my writing out in the mountains flooded and has been unused for two years. And then just last week, my computer crashed. I had to get a new computer.
It's like, how much can I take? How much can I take? So what do you do? What can I learn from what's going on now? And if I look at people who have taught me in the school of suffering, of course Joni would be right at the top, one thing that I've learned is important is to keep a sense of gratitude. Gratitude for the health that I have enjoyed. Two years ago, I, I was very active, worked out frequently, skied, mountain biked, all those things. When I go to the doctor for Parkinson's disease, it's a movement disorder, so I go to the movement disorder clinic, and I walk in and I see these people with much worse diseases like ALS, Lou Gehrig's disease, Lewy body dementia, Huntington's Disease. And first I feel a little ashamed about feeling sorry for myself when these people have true problems that they deal with that are much more interruptive with their lives. And then also, I pray for and feel a sense of compassion for others who aren't as fortunate.
In fact, that famous phrase, "For whom the bell tolls," that's what happened to John Donne, because he's lying in bed and in those days, when someone was very sick and about to die, they would ring a certain bell. When they died, they would ring another bell. And then when they had the funeral service, they would ring a third bell.
So you could kind of tell the progression there by the tone of the bell. And when Donne would hear the bells, especially the one that announced this person was very ill, but has not yet died, he would be wondering, "Is that my bell? They haven't told me this, but maybe, maybe they're announcing my potential death to my congregation." And he started being paranoid and worried about that and anxious. Then he realized as he heard another bell, "Wait a minute, I don't think that is me, but what if it's my neighbor? I haven't been thinking about my neighbor at all. There are people around me who are dying, who are worse off than I am, and I have been so self-absorbed. God, help me to instead use my energy to pray for them, to do what I can to reach out to them, maybe write them a little note." And that phrase, "For whom the bell tolls," don't ask for whom the bell tolls, it tolls, it tolls for you. But it's a bell awakening you to the fact that we're all part of the same body. No man is an island. And if my neighbor does die this country is the less, it shrinks, because part of the body was taken away. And it was really a turning point for him to keep from being so self-absorbed, and being much more aware of those who are suffering around him.
I'm sure some of you who work with Joni and Friends know what I'm talking about, because if you've been to some of these summer camps, and especially in other countries, you'll meet people who have challenges that we just don't have in the United States. Where they have no access to crutches or to wheelchairs, and they're being dragged around on a cardboard box by people who care, but that's really all the resource they have. And what a beautiful thing to be able to turn attention from our problems and reach out to people who have much worse problems, and be able to respond in compassion to them.
Crystal Keating:
That is so very true. You know, I know that when you suffer, the people around you have that sense of empathy, and I'm sure they suffer with you. I'm curious to know how your family has responded to your diagnosis.
I mean if we look at the bigger picture, sometimes suffering can really harden us to God. And the reality is many people, maybe at one point have been open to trusting Christ by faith, but have become eventually disillusioned or disappointed with God, especially when facing their own disability or hardships, or the pain and loss of beloved family members.
So, two questions: How is your family handling this diagnosis? And what's your wisdom for those who have given up or are on the brink of throwing in the towel, especially when it comes to their own diagnosis or disability or their family member?
Philip Yancey:
Boy, those are good, tough questions. My family happens to be very small. I'm married, but we have no children and I have just one sibling, a disabled brother. He had a stroke. Very strange stroke. He was on safari in Africa and he started coughing, and he coughed so hard that he crushed his carotid artery against the spinal column. And it took a few days to have an effect, but gradually it created a tear inside that artery, a block blood flow to the brain. And he, he ended up being comatose and they had to do brain surgery and kind of reroute that artery around a blockage and restored it. But it took him a couple of years to learn to walk, to learn to talk. And he's made a lot of progress. He can't use the right side of his body, but he's learned to drive an adapted car with a pedal switch, things like that.
Crystal Keating:
Amazing.
Philip Yancey:
And we've been very close through that whole period. I think he's a little anxious about me being sick...
Crystal Keating:
Of course.
Philip Yancey:
Because I have been his helper when he doesn't know how to do things around the house and the computer. And it can bring us closer together. It certainly did that for my brother and me. A lot of people have that in their family, that community. I don't so much in my family because it is a pretty small family. I've got a strong wife. My church. The people actually who are my most supportive community mostly live in other cities. Even last night I had a Zoom prayer meeting with some of my close friends in the Chicago area. You know, what a great thing that we can connect on that level with people all over the world actually.
And then for other people, you ask "Well, how do you find people you can rely on? How do you keep from throwing in the towel?" I remember when we first moved to Colorado, we were driving around. It was in April, so the snow is melting off the mountains and the rivers are running high. And we came across these people who were practicing saving people being washed down the river.
These were, emergency technicians, EMTs, that you call when you're in trouble. And their job is to patrol the rivers, and if they see somebody in trouble, then they reach out and grab them. But what I learned as I watched them, you got to be standing on solid bank to really help somebody who's being rushed down the river. If you just jumped in and said, "Here, I'll help you," but you're being swept along too, you really can't help. Somebody's got to be on solid ground.
I always recommend, okay, you're going through doubts, that's not a bad thing, that's a good thing. The Bible is full of that, it wants you to be honest. Just read the book of Job, read the book of Psalms, just follow that honest complaint and doubt. But find a doubt companion who's standing on solid ground, not someone who's reminiscing with you about your own doubts. You don't really need that right now. You need somebody who will accept you and reward you for being honest.
Crystal Keating:
Yes.
Philip Yancey:
And that's one message to the church. 'Cause it's easy for a doubting person to be afraid of church. They're just gonna judge me. They're gonna..."
Crystal Keating:
Absolutely
Philip Yancey:
"...think I'm a heretic." But when we go back to the Gospels. Here was one of Jesus's disciples, Thomas, who didn't believe. And all the other disciples had seen Jesus. They knew he was resurrected. And they kept trying to convince Thomas and Thomas said, look, come on, people don't rise from the dead. I'm not going to swallow this. And they included him still in the group. And it's a good thing because he was with them when Jesus appeared. And I love the gentle way Jesus handled Thomas's doubts. He didn't scold him, didn't make him feel bad. He just said, what proof do you need, Thomas? Do you want me to eat something for you? Do you want to feel my scars? And Thomas never doubted again, I'm sure.
Crystal Keating:
I don't often think about that aspect of Jesus's response to questions, and I think you put that so well. It's just such a grace. "What do you need to help you draw closer to me?" When we're not honest, we miss that opportunity. And I think we as a church can become better and better of a place, and a people, that invite hard questions and go to God and the scriptures with it. And I love that you have a community kind of all around the world.
Have you had to lean into even your local church community as you manage your diagnosis? I know Parkinson's is often progressive and thank God you have maybe minimal symptoms at the moment, but have you had to rely on them for encouragement or help at this point?
Philip Yancey:
Yes, I have in my church community. I think one in eight men will get prostate cancer at some point, and I've heard quite a few stories. I do get the local friends who will call up and tell me, "Their not going to tell you this in the doctor's office, but let me tell you one thing you're going to experience."
Crystal Keating:
That's a kindness of God. I feel like, in my own life, I've experienced God's care in the midst of hardships, or crisis, through people who have gone before me. I'm so glad you have his body surrounding you in such helpful ways.
Philip Yancey:
And, you know, there are others with different afflictions who need more, and when I was working with Dr. Paul Brand, you mentioned him in the introduction, he kept saying, "Our body is a miraculous machine of healing. It's oriented toward healing." He would say, " The real miracle is when you free up the body to spend all of its energy healing itself.
Crystal Keating:
Oh!
Philip Yancey:
And there are people who are paralyzed by fear and guilt and anxiety, and they're wondering, "How am I going to make a living? How am I going to feed my kids? How am I going to do the housework? How am I going to take care of my dog?" And that's what the church community is so good at. If they surround a person like that and say, "Don't worry about the food, we've stocked your refrigerator. Don't worry about taking your kids to school, we'll have a carpool, we'll take care of that. We'll feed your dog. We'll take your dog for a walk." And then you can take away all those stress and anxiety and say, "Just concentrate on healing." And that means rest, take your medication, do what you can. But, remove that stress factor and let the body do what it was designed to do.
Crystal Keating:
That is some wise identification on Dr. Brand's part. And I think that's so true. You know, I often see the parallels between being physically disabled and, you know, what some may call emotionally disabled and how they can both arrest your sense of progress and connection. I see them going hand in hand where, you said it so well, when we as the body of Christ can encounter someone in either one of those spaces, and lovingly care and alleviate some of the burdens that they're shouldering that creates stress, 'cause stress is the number one thing that inhibits our healing for sure, and you said it, fear. It's really amazing what, not only the love we feel, but how our bodies can sort of recover and recuperate. So, thank you,
Philip Yancey:
Yeah
Crystal Keating:
...for identifying that.
I kind of want to turn the corner a little bit because I'd love to connect the history of your life. as expressed in your memoir, "Where the Light Fell." Okay, I have to say this too, Joni loved your book. I'm about halfway through in, in the audio version of it. She would read it faithfully almost every night with her "get down girl," and she just loved learning about you, and I highly recommend it. And the challenges that you're now facing with your own health, I know you give testament to the enduring power of our hunger for truth, amen, throughout your memoir and the possibility of faith rooted in grace instead of fear. So, how do you think other spiritual seekers who are living with ongoing suffering, that may not be physically healed while here on earth, can keep this alive in their hearts today.
Philip Yancey:
Boy, I've been struggling with that my whole life. And the thing I took away as I reflected on my life, and wrote about it, is that we need to be very careful when we speak for God on behalf of God. Not everybody who claims to speak for God actually does so. The book opens with this true story. The first really consequential story of my life and I was only 13 months old. So I have no memory of it whatsoever. There was a pandemic going on in 1950. It was polio. And the whole nation was just terrified. Fifty, seventy thousand kids a year, were being afflicted by polio, many paralyzed, many killed, and there was mass panic. They closed swimming pools, they closed schools, trying to keep people away from exposure.
My father was 23 years old. He had quite an interesting upbringing himself. Was in the Navy, was sailing to fight in World War II when the atomic bombs dropped and there was an armistice. So he returned, had a dramatic conversion and decided to become a missionary.
So flash forward three or four years, he got married, had two children. I was one of them. And they were well on their way to going to Africa as missionaries. And then one morning he woke up and couldn't move. The ambulance came and took him to the hospital. And he had polio. He couldn't do anything. He couldn't move his fingers or his toes. He could move his neck just a little bit. But he couldn't feed himself, couldn't read a book. He couldn't even breathe on his own. And was put in an iron lung. Looks like a cylinder. And it pumps air in and out. And that kept him alive, but pretty miserable existence, just lying there all day.
And other people around him thought, "Well, this isn't right for a person who's dedicated, wants to be a missionary. It's been two months now he's been in this iron lung, unable to do anything. That can't be God's will." So they got together and prayed and believed in faith that he would be healed. And removed him from that iron lung and put him in another place. There were articles in the newspaper, I still have them. I didn't find them till I was a teenager, but they told the story of the apparent progress, maybe a little mini miracles, like he could move his toes now. But he wasn't healed. Nine days later he died. And that mistake, mistake in theology, people who took on a prerogative that is really God's, not ours to take on, that shadowed my life. It guaranteed that we lived in poverty. I grew up in a trailer, a metal trailer, eight feet by forty eight feet, with my brother and mother. She was deeply affected, some would say a very troubled person. And, I wish my mother had felt the freedom to express how that really struck her.
I wrote a book called "Disappointment with God," and she was scandalized by the title, but there's a lot of disappointment with God expressed in the Bible. And I wish she had felt free, like Job, to say, "This isn't right. This isn't fair. He was going to serve you. Look what you did to him." But she couldn't do that. She took it out in other ways. Mainly on, on my brother. And to a lesser degree on me.
So there's that kind of emotional wound that you're talking about, that there are different kinds of pain, you know, some people have bodies that are intact, but they're deeply wounded on the soul internally.
And I wrote for them, especially those who've been wounded by the church, because that was a lot of my story. And let's be honest, the church does wound people. And, we don't have a promise that we're going to be pain free. Nobody is. I always point towards the biblical picture that we have. And it's not a pain free existence, but it's what I call redeemed pain. It's pain that is made meaningful and useful. Joni, of course, is a beautiful example of that, turning what looked like a tragedy at the time into a great triumph and a gift to the church.
In many situations the people I've interviewed as a journalist over the years, some who have moved me, the most poignantly, have been those that showed God's redeemed pain in their lives. And I want to present hope for those people, no matter what it is, no matter if you're quadriplegic, or if it's somebody who was abused by a parent or you know, just fill in the blank. There are ways for God to take what, seems like an irredeemable tragedy and turn it into a kind of redeemed pain.
Crystal Keating:
That is definitely a comfort and something we can take to heart. And, you know, maybe you've expressed this, but after everything that your journey has taken you through, I mean that really came out in reading "Where the Light Fell". I mean, you were part of churches that really expressed a "gospel" that aren't consistent in scripture. That's not God's heart. You witnessed racism as part of sort of a church culture and the difficulties that your, your mom bear that were expressed on you and your brother. Do you ever struggle to understand how you've remained faithful to following Jesus?
Philip Yancey:
Well, I wouldn't say I remained faithful, because I certainly went through a period of tossing it all away, or at least holding it up in advance for a while. There's this phrase going around now, called deconstructing faith.
Crystal Keating:
Sure.
Philip Yancey:
With a lot of younger people, especially. They're raised in a certain church environment, and then they go through this period and say, "Wait a minute, that doesn't work for me. I'm going to take my faith apart." And actually, they found out it's usually a lot easier to deconstruct faith than to reconstruct faith, you know? And I want to speak to those people, in fact, they're the ones for whom I wrote this story. Because I run into so many people, and I'll say, "So where, where are you with faith? And they'll tell me, "You know, I used to go to Young Life, I used to go to church camps, and I really enjoyed that." Then they'll tell me a story about how their parents were treated when they were divorced, or a gay child, or some story of, of wounding by the church or the way the church judged them because they wanted to become a scientist rather than a pastor or something like that.
Crystal Keating:
Right. Right.
Philip Yancey:
And, I'll say, "Oh, let me tell you, the church is much worse than that. Let me tell you my story." And I'll tell them some of the background I grew up in. And they'll say, "But I thought you were a Christian writer?" I say, "Well, I am, but that would be a bad trade to forfeit the possibility to connect with the God who created the universe because of the way somebody treated your parents 20 years ago. That's a bad trade."
So it's worth the struggle. Yeah, we do have to at least examine our faith, and make some changes here and there. And hopefully do that in a healthy environment that can help you. But just to turn away, who loses there?
Crystal Keating:
That's so honest. And you know, one of the missions of this podcast through the years has been to enliven the church to embrace, accept, and include people of all abilities. And I know it's not necessarily your exact situation or experience, but it's the same type of idea. You know, I hear these stories of parents with children who have autism come in and sadly, sometimes the response is, "We can't handle your kid. I'm so sorry. You know, we don't know what to do." And those have lasting impacts! And so our heart as a church is to say. Let's be a place where all people can come, and we talk about the truth of God's grace and we talk about his love and we put his care on display and we are a place where we can ask hard questions and let it not be a place where everything has to be perfect. And I, I just think it's a work in, we're a work in progress for sure.
Philip Yancey:
We are. You know, looking back over my life, it seemed to me that no matter what I start writing about, I end up writing about suffering and grace. Those two things. Suffering, because I did experience quite a bit of it growing up, and I'm surrounded by it, and I just had to come to terms with it in one way or another.
And then that word grace, man, I wouldn't want to go through suffering without grace. I think there are a lot of people who try to, they close their fist. And they, they miss who God is and they miss the very forgiveness and love and energy that they need to become not a sponge soaking up anger, but rather someone with life giving it out to others who are in more need.
Crystal Keating:
So good. Well, you know, we're really in an interesting time in our ministry. Because, although Joni's doing very, very well, her health is good. She's navigated some pretty serious health challenges, as we know. I mean, I'm sure she can resonate with you when you say, "Oh, like Parkinson's and now cancer." You know, for her it's like... quadriplegia...
Philip Yancey:
COVID.
Crystal Keating:
And now chronic pain. And now, COVID and, you know, you just think, "Okay, I don't know how much more I can do. I don't know how much more I can take." And so I know, you know, it's funny because Joni does prepare for her own home going. Like sometimes she'll say, well, you know, I, I use this treatment and it lasts for 15 minutes and kind of uncomfortable while I go through it, but it's just going to be life it's going to be over in a blink and then we'll have eternity. She's always keeping that in perspective and she really tries to squeeze every ounce of her life for Christ and others, so.
Philip, as we just finish this wonderful conversation, and as you think about your own future homegoing and the uncertainty of your condition, how do you hope to be remembered?
Philip Yancey:
Well, I had an experience in 2007. It was a rollover accident where my SUV went off a slippery mountain road. It turned over and over five times and I ended up with a broken neck. I ended up that day being strapped to a body board as they're trying to do cat scans and things to find out what was wrong and the doctor came in at one point and said, here's a cell phone because we have a jet standing by to fly you to Denver for surgery. But the truth is, if your carotid artery has been punctured by a little bone, which it may have been in your neck, you won't make it even to Denver. So call the people you love and tell them goodbye.
Crystal Keating:
Oh jeez.
Philip Yancey:
So woah, I mean, I was driving 45 minutes ago and now I'm maybe dying. And, so I started thinking, well, what are those questions? And I came up with three questions that are worth really thinking about, and if this was my last hour of life.
Okay, who do I love? Who, who will I call on this phone? What, what's undone in my life? What didn't I get to that I should have?
And then, am I ready for what's next? If I do die in the next five minutes, am I ready? And being raised in a church of fire and brimstone, I never knew how I would respond. I felt a great sense of peace and trust, mainly trust. I have learned to know a God of mercy, compassion, forgiveness, and love. And I had such a sense of gratitude for my life and the meaningful work I've had, being able to explore questions that I have all the time and write about them in a way that may be able to bring help to some others. So I didn't have a fear of death.
As I said, my friendship with Joni goes back just about exactly 50 years. I was a punk kid. I was like 21 years old. It was one of my first assignments as a journalist, and they sent me to interview this aspiring athlete who had been injured. I didn't know anything else about her. So I show up, found the winding hills of Maryland where she lived. And it was just the two of us in the house. And she's telling me her story. We're about the same age. And she starts crying. And I'm like, you know, I'm a 21 year old boy. I don't know what to do. And she's goes " I'm so sorry, but could you go into the bathroom and get a Kleenex?" "Oh, sure, Joni," and I went in and got a Kleenex. And then she said, "Could you wipe my eyes?" "Oh, oh sure." And it was such an awkward moment for both of us.
And then she started crying and she said, "How can I possibly survive like this? How can I go on like this? I can't do anything on my own. I can't drive. I can't ride a horse. I can't go to the bathroom on my own. I can't even cry on my own. How can I possibly live a life like this?"
Flash forward 50 years. I was with her at one of her events. And I heard her say, "The day I broke my neck was the greatest day of my life, because it was through that, that God taught me, you're not just here to indulge, to have a good time. No, you have a higher calling. You are to alert the church." And she became a prophet. A prophet to the church to remind us of the people that Jesus cared about. He spent time with people in prisons, and in slums, in rehab facilities, and leprosy patients. I've also, as a journalist, been attracted to those people. And I came away with this phrase that kind of summarized what I've learned about pain. And it's that, pain redeemed impresses me more than pain removed.
Pain redeemed impresses me more than pain removed. I mean, Joni wanted more than anything for somebody to take her affliction away. Everybody prayed for her, you know. Billy Graham, Kathryn Kuhlman. Pat Robertson. They all prayed for her in public and said, "Heal this woman!" And Joni wasn't healed. And as you say, she's not been exempt even since then. Just one illness after another. And yet, pain redeemed impresses me more than pain removed. And only she could say this "That was the greatest day of my life." That's a miracle. That's a miracle, to me more impressive than walking.
Crystal Keating:
God is the ultimate redeemer of all things that are so burdensome in our life and yet he's working it for good. And, you know, I think in the midst of crisis sometimes, that truth from Romans 8 can either sting or bring us so much comfort when said, you know, in the right spirit. And I think Joni can really say God has worked all things together for good as we love him.
Phillip, this has been such a, an invigorating and encouraging conversation. Thank you so much for joining us on the podcast today.
Philip Yancey:
Well, it's my privilege. And Joni's just a hero. I'm so glad I met her and that we've been in touch all these years since.
Crystal Keating:
Thank you for listening today. For more episodes, find us wherever you get your podcast and be sure to subscribe. We’d also love it if you would tell a friend. And for more encouragement, follow Joni and Friends on Instagram, Facebook, or YouTube. And visit our website at joniandfriends.org/podcast. Thank you for listening to the Joni and Friends Ministry Podcast.
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